sexual harrassment
Nov. 28th, 2002 07:04 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
arachne8xBased on a recent post I jump into the trench again to
get ready for the fire I know that will be generated by my statements here, but I feel the need to respond to some of the comments that were generated by a recent post, please read it and the comments attached if you want to know what I am referring to, its the one entitled "the real issues".
What did she do to get called a cunt? What? Thats what you respond with?
So the implication is that in some cases women deserve to be called these names? That is a load of crap.
Now look, I know that many men feel victimized by these rules because they feel like their actions are indefensible. And maybe sometimes this is true, maybe some men do get victimized by this policy, but for many their actions seem indefensible because they truly do not have a good reason for what they have done, what they have done is rude, and doesn't belong in the workplace.
Sexual harrassment has behind it the desire to make women, and others feel safe in the workplace.
Should I develop a tougher skin? I am sorry but thats not the issue.
Example:
When I was in junior high this guy that sat behind me in spanish class (we had assigned seats) would whisper throughout the entire period about how he was going to have sex with me, in graphic detail. I was unpopular at the time and he did it to make me miserable. I went to the principal, and I believe I was right in doing so. I was scared to sit in front of him back then because of those things he said to me, I shouldn't have to shrug off things like that in the place I work or go to school.
Everyone should have a right to feel safe around their coworkers and students. Are sexual harrassment laws and regs going to provide that safety? To a certain extent yes. These rules give those who have been made to feel frightened and upset a way to deal with someone who is making them feel that way.
And so what about the jokes that make us uncomfortable? Should we shrug those off too? I know that many feel that these laws go too far, but try to imagine what its like to be the only woman in an office. Try to imagine what it feels like to hear stories constantly where women are referred to as whores and bitches. Try to imagine what it would feel like to have to endure locker room talk at your workplace and still feel safe around these people. Is it a false sense of security that squelching this talk in the workplace provides? Perhaps, but it is a measure that can mean the difference between being able to get on with your day and do work, or not. Its important that people are treated with respect and care in the workplace.
I have worked in all male environments, and most of the experiences were favorable because I worked with nice guys, but I have heard of some of the jokes that were passed around in my friends office. He sent me one of the tamest by email, and I opened it at work. I was really glad that none of the guys were in the office just then because I was really embarrassed.
When you are the only woman in sight, and especially if you are younger, as I was, it can be very difficult to relate with your coworkers. I used to try to have lunch with them but they always talked about things that didn't interest me so I went and lunched by myself with a book. I was lucky that I worked with guys who were nice enough that I felt comfortable with them, but if they had leered at me, ogled me, talked to me about how sexy I looked, made sexual jokes around me, and done any number of things that some would feel are things I should just shrug off or at best be flattered by, I would have felt unsafe around them. I would have felt uncomfortable being alone in the office with them, or working late by myself. I would have been scared that their comments might lead to some kind of sexual assault, or just unwanted advances.
It sucks feeling scared of the people you work with. I know how that feels. It makes you unhappy enough that you can't work. I don't think develop a thick hide is always the answer although I do know some of the regs go too far. I think that people have a right to work in a place where explicit sexual conversation, porn watching, sexual jokes, and sexual advances are not considered appropriate, and
I think that most men that I call friends, who are kind, intelligent and care about women, would not want to make female coworkers feel uncomfortable around them, would not want to make them feel scared of them. Does it ruin the fun and relaxed atmosphere for a while? Maybe, but its a poor comic who can't be funny without using sex and gender as a tool.
I have a thicker skin than many when it comes to jokes my friends tell, movies they watch and things they say to me, but at work I expect to be treated with respect and professionalism and I don't think that is too much to ask, especially when the people I work with are ones I go out to the field with, work in boats with, and otherwise have to spend long hours alone with. I don't think its too much to ask to request that those times we behave in ways that allow those around us to feel safe.
Do men feel victimized by these rules? Maybe, but to piggyback on a comment to the post that generated this dicussion, maybe the men that do this deserve to be victimized by a certain extent. I am not condoning witch hunts, but I don't think its wrong to ask men (or women) for that matter to leave the sexual comments, porn, and jokes at home when they go to the office. Before you decide that the perpetrator is actually the victim, truly consider his/her actions and decide for yourself whether they were truly innocent, or whether they behaved in a way they knew was inappropriate.
get ready for the fire I know that will be generated by my statements here, but I feel the need to respond to some of the comments that were generated by a recent post, please read it and the comments attached if you want to know what I am referring to, its the one entitled "the real issues".
What did she do to get called a cunt? What? Thats what you respond with?
So the implication is that in some cases women deserve to be called these names? That is a load of crap.
Now look, I know that many men feel victimized by these rules because they feel like their actions are indefensible. And maybe sometimes this is true, maybe some men do get victimized by this policy, but for many their actions seem indefensible because they truly do not have a good reason for what they have done, what they have done is rude, and doesn't belong in the workplace.
Sexual harrassment has behind it the desire to make women, and others feel safe in the workplace.
Should I develop a tougher skin? I am sorry but thats not the issue.
Example:
When I was in junior high this guy that sat behind me in spanish class (we had assigned seats) would whisper throughout the entire period about how he was going to have sex with me, in graphic detail. I was unpopular at the time and he did it to make me miserable. I went to the principal, and I believe I was right in doing so. I was scared to sit in front of him back then because of those things he said to me, I shouldn't have to shrug off things like that in the place I work or go to school.
Everyone should have a right to feel safe around their coworkers and students. Are sexual harrassment laws and regs going to provide that safety? To a certain extent yes. These rules give those who have been made to feel frightened and upset a way to deal with someone who is making them feel that way.
And so what about the jokes that make us uncomfortable? Should we shrug those off too? I know that many feel that these laws go too far, but try to imagine what its like to be the only woman in an office. Try to imagine what it feels like to hear stories constantly where women are referred to as whores and bitches. Try to imagine what it would feel like to have to endure locker room talk at your workplace and still feel safe around these people. Is it a false sense of security that squelching this talk in the workplace provides? Perhaps, but it is a measure that can mean the difference between being able to get on with your day and do work, or not. Its important that people are treated with respect and care in the workplace.
I have worked in all male environments, and most of the experiences were favorable because I worked with nice guys, but I have heard of some of the jokes that were passed around in my friends office. He sent me one of the tamest by email, and I opened it at work. I was really glad that none of the guys were in the office just then because I was really embarrassed.
When you are the only woman in sight, and especially if you are younger, as I was, it can be very difficult to relate with your coworkers. I used to try to have lunch with them but they always talked about things that didn't interest me so I went and lunched by myself with a book. I was lucky that I worked with guys who were nice enough that I felt comfortable with them, but if they had leered at me, ogled me, talked to me about how sexy I looked, made sexual jokes around me, and done any number of things that some would feel are things I should just shrug off or at best be flattered by, I would have felt unsafe around them. I would have felt uncomfortable being alone in the office with them, or working late by myself. I would have been scared that their comments might lead to some kind of sexual assault, or just unwanted advances.
It sucks feeling scared of the people you work with. I know how that feels. It makes you unhappy enough that you can't work. I don't think develop a thick hide is always the answer although I do know some of the regs go too far. I think that people have a right to work in a place where explicit sexual conversation, porn watching, sexual jokes, and sexual advances are not considered appropriate, and
I think that most men that I call friends, who are kind, intelligent and care about women, would not want to make female coworkers feel uncomfortable around them, would not want to make them feel scared of them. Does it ruin the fun and relaxed atmosphere for a while? Maybe, but its a poor comic who can't be funny without using sex and gender as a tool.
I have a thicker skin than many when it comes to jokes my friends tell, movies they watch and things they say to me, but at work I expect to be treated with respect and professionalism and I don't think that is too much to ask, especially when the people I work with are ones I go out to the field with, work in boats with, and otherwise have to spend long hours alone with. I don't think its too much to ask to request that those times we behave in ways that allow those around us to feel safe.
Do men feel victimized by these rules? Maybe, but to piggyback on a comment to the post that generated this dicussion, maybe the men that do this deserve to be victimized by a certain extent. I am not condoning witch hunts, but I don't think its wrong to ask men (or women) for that matter to leave the sexual comments, porn, and jokes at home when they go to the office. Before you decide that the perpetrator is actually the victim, truly consider his/her actions and decide for yourself whether they were truly innocent, or whether they behaved in a way they knew was inappropriate.
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no subject
Date: 2002-11-28 05:35 am (UTC)So we should legislate what people can, and can say in a *PRIVATE* workplace? (Ie: private property, privately owned business).
Once again, this is a scenario where you are *forcing* people to get along, respect one another and make happy.
You're making laws, *federal* laws mandating politeness.
I'm sorry. You feel threatened at your workplace, then bring it up to the managers, or quit. Don't go and make a federal law regarding a joke, or types of joke. That's called freedom of speech.
I have about 10 trillion other more coherant things to say about this. But, I just woke up, and my eyes are barely open.
Think about it. Instead of talking to the people one on one, and maybe a manager too, you're asking for blanket federal policies regarding human interaction.
Face a quick fact, Affirmative action didn't, and does not work, and that too is forced equality...
What makes you think this will? I expect the workplace to become even more hostile.
no subject
Date: 2002-11-28 06:24 am (UTC)I am not for heavy legislation. When I discussed sexual harrassment, I never discussed the laws.
Can we legislate fairness? No. Can we keep people from lynching people they hate? No, no law can do that. But the laws say that its not something we condone, that these are crimes in the eyes of the government and can be prosecuted as such.
No you can't make the whole world fair, or safe. So lets do away with all laws shall we? Do theft laws keep people from stealing? Rape laws keep people from raping? Domestic Violence laws keep husbands from beating up their wives? No. But they give the government a right to punish people for these crimes and some will change their actions based on fear of being caught, not all but some.
What these laws do is give the managers a responsibility to act on the complaints of their employees. And their are plenty of managers who wouldn't do anything but throw the complaints in the garbage can without them.
But on the other hand, its not just about laws. Its about attitude. No one can legislate fairness, you are right Jesse, but your suggestion that everyone should just develop a tough skin is what makes a working environment uncomfortable for your coworkers. I don't think you should get fired for what you do in your spare time, but I think that what you do at work is something that your company should be allowed to dictate to a certain extent. Many businesses will fire their employees for not being dressed appropriately for work, does this intrude on this persons right to express themselves? Yes, but the company has a right to require that its employees behave in what it considers an appropriate manner. I am suggesting that that appropriate manner, which dictates dress and other things that the company feels are important to its image and to its employees productivity, should also include having a respectful working environment for everyone.
Email your sex jokes outside of work for all I care. But its inappropriate at work, and though we can't legislate it away the laws against sexual harrassment have finally made people cognizant of the issue. And that _has_ improved working conditions for many women, who might otherwise have been ignored, or too frightened to make the situation known to their bosses. Sexual harrassment is now something that women, and men for that matter, no longer feel is something they have to put up with, and I think thats an improvement.
You can use rhetoric to pull my arguments apart, and you probably will, but can you defend a persons right to "cop a feel" on the department secretary, suggest that a promotion is only available if sexual services are rendered, or hit on someone constantly until they give in or leave?
Because that is the issue. You want to trivialize it to say that you have a right to post and tell any jokes you want without censorship? Ok, but whether you like it or not that can make working in close quarters with you uncomfortable or even frightening for your coworkers. And maybe they shouldn't be expected to develop a tough skin to be able to function at work.
Ok, you want an example?
Date: 2002-11-28 10:53 am (UTC)Were you aware that most policies are phrased so that a single chance comment eavesdropped on can get a man sued? Or that a simple glance form a man can get him sued? How does he defend himself against a "I just looked to see who it was and next thing I knwo I'm being hit with Sexual Harassment suit"?
As to name calling...You ever call a guy an asshole? A Bastard? A cocksucker? Odds are he did something that pissed you off when you did so. That's what I'm saying. Women are not saints that are always in the right and never deserved to be called names. Quite honestly I've known a few women in my time that some people would call cunts, I tend to stick with the term bitch, because I'm just not crude enough in my normal everyday language to make cunt a common word.
Now in the statements you made you mentioned a *male* friend who made a complaint and got ignored. That is the otherside of the coin. Men make a complaint and get ignored. Women make a complaint and someone is looking for a new job usually. No one should have to put up with sexual harassment, or for that matter harassment of any sort.
And as to you working with the guys, I'll bet you dollars to donoughts that your looks and body were discusse dby the guys you worked with. Just none of them were impolite enough to talk about it while you were around.
no subject
Date: 2002-11-29 05:38 am (UTC)I think there should always be an investigation process.
I don't think that you or any of my other friends want to see women harrrassed. You are upset about the way that companies enforce their policies. This doesn't mean that sexual harrassment is bogus, or that women (and men) don't get victimized in the workplace.
the problem
Date: 2002-12-01 08:46 pm (UTC)Sexual harrassment policy is there to do one thing: protect the company from lawsuits against the company. Making the workplace a more respectful environment is a desirable side effect, but only a side effect. If that isn't achieved, oh well. Lets just not pay our lawyers any more than we have to, ok?
Manager's perspective:
I don't want to have to deal with this. If I do, I want to get out of the situation without making myself look bad. All I need to figure out is how likely the alleged victim is to sue or go over my head about this and whether I'm paying these people to harrass each other when they should be working.
Worker's perspective:
If I say something about this, I'll be the bad guy and no one will ever joke around with me again. In fact, maybe this will get blown all out of proportion and no one will ever be able to joke around, ever. I'm going to have to do even more paperwork than I already do. I don't want to sue anyone, I just want this bullshit to stop so I can work in some semblance of peace. Maybe it would just be easier to find a new job or get transferred or something.
Lawmaker's perspective:
Wow, will I get re-elected if I vote for, or even worse propose, some law governing this? If it passes, does this mean I can't have any more cute interns working for me? I'm sure somebody that contributed $$$ to my campaign would be against this...in fact, I think I'll have my intern look into the leanings of my contributors...brilliant!
My commentary:
Even ignoring the 4th and most satyrical perspective, its pretty obvious that sexual harassment isn't a black and white issue. People don't understand just how complicated it is until they're involved in a dispute. We hear about more cases where the existing laws are abused because most real cases go unreported and they stick in our minds more because we're more afraid of them. A potential sexual harassment case makes everyone involved think they're going to look bad - that they're caught in a lose-lose situation - so everyone would rather keep it quiet. Where is the incentive for anyone to do "the right thing?" What is "the right thing," to do? That depends on your perspective.